{"id":7,"date":"2012-06-09T23:04:19","date_gmt":"2012-06-10T03:04:19","guid":{"rendered":"\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/?p=7"},"modified":"2015-08-20T20:10:38","modified_gmt":"2015-08-21T00:10:38","slug":"19920814-interview","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/2012\/06\/09\/19920814-interview\/","title":{"rendered":"1992 August 14 &#8211; Jack Kirby interview"},"content":{"rendered":"<blockquote><p>\u201cIn the early Nineties I was an avid consumer of <a href=\"http:\/\/hplusmagazine.com\/2010\/05\/26\/mondo-2000-history-project\/\">Mondo 2000<\/a>, a wildly glossy magazine filled with digital eye-candy, day-glo tressed and tattooed models draped in computer gear, and techno-hippie political screeds. The folks who published Mondo 2000 from their communal home in the San Francisco Bay area were inspired by the science-fiction novels of <a href=\"http:\/\/www.wired.com\/beyond_the_beyond\/\">Bruce Sterling<\/a> and <a href=\"http:\/\/www.williamgibsonbooks.com\/\">William Gibson<\/a>, the punk DIY ethic, and the seemingly non-stop advances in computer graphics, virtual reality, and smart drug technology. These people seemed to me, at the time, to be the embodiment of some of the future people I\u2019d read about in comic books.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cI was also beginning my travels in cyberspace and became a member of a San Francisco-based conferencing system called <a href=\"http:\/\/www.well.com\/\">The Well<\/a>, run by the folks who published the Whole Earth Review. Remember, this was before the World Wide Web was invented; it was the time of dial-up entities like bulletin boards, AOL, Prodigy, Genie, and others. Mondo 2000 soon had its own forum on The Well, where one Well-ite made mention of some of the concepts in The Eternals. Our discussion of Kirby\u2019s work went on\u2014his use of Virtual Reality in OMAC, the bio-engineering of Arnim Zola and the High Evolutionary\u2014and one of the editors posted that his interest was piqued and that perhaps there was an article in it. Eventually <a href=\"http:\/\/www.andrewpmayer.com\/\">Andrew Mayer<\/a>, a writer and programmer, pitched the article to the editorial tribunal and got an OK. Andrew and I felt this was a great opportunity to meet and interview Kirby, so Andrew made arrangements with the Kirbys to meet at that Summer\u2019s San Diego Comic-Con. It was my first San Diego Con, and I was going to interview the King! Life was good!<\/p>\n<p>\u201cAndrew was well prepared. My thought was that simply keeping the ideas driving Mondo2000 in mind, we&#8217;d have a great conversation with Kirby. \u00a0Andrew asked the right Mondo-like questions, and Jack took it from there! We submitted the article, including some pull quotes, but it wasn\u2019t published. We were told one of the editorial tribunal didn\u2019t really like comics. Go figure\u2014Neil Gaiman and Dave Sim were later featured in the mag.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>&#8211; Rand Hoppe &#8211; edited from original publication in <a href=\"http:\/\/twomorrows.com\/index.php?main_page=product_info&amp;products_id=447\">TwoMorrows&#8217; October 1998 Jack Kirby Collector 21<\/a>.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<div id=\"attachment_33\" style=\"width: 522px\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\"><a href=\"\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/3\/2012\/06\/IMAG059011.jpg\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-33\" data-attachment-id=\"33\" data-permalink=\"https:\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/2012\/06\/09\/19920814-interview\/imag0590\/\" data-orig-file=\"https:\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/3\/2012\/06\/IMAG05901.jpg\" data-orig-size=\"2560,1440\" data-comments-opened=\"1\" data-image-meta=\"{&quot;aperture&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;credit&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;camera&quot;:&quot;PG86100&quot;,&quot;caption&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;created_timestamp&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;copyright&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;focal_length&quot;:&quot;4.31&quot;,&quot;iso&quot;:&quot;200&quot;,&quot;shutter_speed&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:&quot;&quot;}\" data-image-title=\"San Diego Comic-Con &amp;#8217;92 badge\" data-image-description=\"\" data-image-caption=\"\" data-medium-file=\"https:\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/3\/2012\/06\/IMAG05901-300x168.jpg\" data-large-file=\"https:\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/3\/2012\/06\/IMAG05901-1024x576.jpg\" class=\"wp-image-33\" title=\"San Diego Comic-Con '92 badge\" src=\"\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/3\/2012\/06\/IMAG05901-1024x576.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"512\" height=\"288\" srcset=\"https:\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/3\/2012\/06\/IMAG05901-1024x576.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/3\/2012\/06\/IMAG05901-300x168.jpg 300w, https:\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/3\/2012\/06\/IMAG05901-624x351.jpg 624w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 512px) 100vw, 512px\" \/><\/a><p id=\"caption-attachment-33\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">A photo of my recently found San Diego Comic-Con &#8217;92 \u00a0badge<\/p><\/div>\n<p>Here&#8217;s the audio of the interview, via YouTube:<\/p>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/0PgTtMXjKLY\" width=\"420\" height=\"120\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>14 August 1992: The Kirbys\u2019 hotel room<\/p>\n<p>ANDREW MAYER: Mondo&#8217;s a lot about technology and a lot about the way people, these days, deal with technology and how it&#8217;s changing their lives on a personal level and I think that&#8217;s why your work speaks to a lot of people there. In fact, I was reading the Hunger Dogs last night and I was really blown away with the way in that book that you were dealing with issues. You were taking some of the issues you were dealt with earlier and then saying what\u2019s happening now?\u2014what\u2019s changed now?<\/p>\n<p>JACK KIRBY: What\u2019s changed now is that storytelling has changed. Like you said, you talk about technology\u2014we don\u2019t write on pads anymore. We write on computers, we write on word processors. Actually, our language may be crisper and maybe a little more urgent. Maybe we\u2019re just not as leisurely as we used to be.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: Have you noticed a change in the way people&#8230;?<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: No, it\u2019s not a great change. People remain people through all kinds of technologies. Sure, we had technology, too. We called \u2019em pencils, and we tried for effects, even with pencils. We tried for halftones. Didn\u2019t we have Ben-day?<\/p>\n<p>RAND HOPPE: Sure. Surprints.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Right. So if you wanted a halftone, it was just a series of dots. Really. If you analyze it and put it under a microscope, you\u2019ve got these dots spread all the way out. Put \u2019em together and you get a nice halftone. In other words, it isn\u2019t black, it isn\u2019t white, but it\u2019ll look great on pants! (laughter) So yes, I believe we had our own technology, but it was a simple technology.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: For instance, the Micro-Mark you were talking about in the Hunger Dogs book; Darkseid had come up with this new technology that was going to change&#8230;!<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Yes, I was trying to stay 30 years ahead. I always try to stay about 30 years ahead doing my stories. In other words, I wouldn\u2019t write a story about things people already knew.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: I came across something that blew my mind in OMAC where he\u2019s got these goggles on and he\u2019s going into this movie in his dreams. That\u2019s predicting something that they\u2019re coming along with now: Virtual Reality.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Of course, of course\u2014but it\u2019s something which at that period could have been ridiculed. \u201cThose things are never going to happen.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>HOPPE: And here we are.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: And here we are. The technology is so simple to us that we readily accept it as part of our lives. I can\u2019t use it as well as you, but it\u2019s your generation that\u2019s grown up with it. So, it lives with you fellows and it\u2019s as natural as anything.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: Like video games or whatever.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: I envy you in a way because you can live a lot more reasonably in a contemporary world than I do.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: But there\u2019s a lot of issues that you brought up through all the work that you did, where sometimes it makes your life more difficult.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Well, of course it would! Because a lot of people wouldn\u2019t accept what you\u2019re doing. They say, \u201cWell, you must be a daydreamer. Give us facts.\u201d And, of course, the facts would be very simple for that particular day. But somehow they accepted mine, because I took those fantastic facts and put them in a good story. And if the story sold magazines, I was doing my job. My job was to sell magazines.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: When you were doing those, did you think how you were affecting your audience\u2014what somebody would be thinking about when they were reading them?<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Sure! I felt that the audience would feel the same astonishment that I did\u2014astonishment in these particular developments. Now, in my day the subway was a big thing, right? But today we have modes of transportation that outstrip the common subway. We can look forward to techno-tubes and things like that. We can look forward to crossing New York in 45 minutes when it takes us 2 hours now.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: So you were always looking ahead over the horizon and just pulling that back.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Yes, I always drew a story 30 years ahead\u2014what I considered 30 years ahead.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: So then, somehow you mixed that in with mythology as well.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Oh, yes I did. I brought mythology into modern times. I brought in Hercules. I brought in Samson.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: And the New Gods.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Well, the New Gods were a 30 years ahead thing! (laughter) The New Gods was, \u201cWhat was that mythology all about? There\u2019s gotta be a new mythology!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: Reading it even now, it\u2019s exciting.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: I was creating a mythology for the \u201970s, which the \u201970s didn\u2019t have. Not only that, it was acceptable in the fact that it was a battle between father and son.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: That\u2019s very classic.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: It is classic! Show me the son that doesn\u2019t defy the father! (laughter)<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: And then you switch them so they have this urge from the other side.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Right, but they\u2019re always afraid. Both father and son will not accept the final confrontation. A son in the end will never hurt his father\u2014that\u2019s my personal belief\u2014and a father will never hurt his son. I know that I never will. My son can do anything to me that he damn pleases. (laughter) It\u2019s just the way I feel. I can\u2019t hurt my own flesh and blood. I feel that even villains, though totally with problems\u2014totally beset by problems, which they have to contend with; their own character and the things that spring from their character; their issues with other people\u2014they have to contend with that. But, they do it in a totally human way. I was talking earlier with some people about Doctor Doom. Doctor Doom is an evil person, but he\u2019s not always been evil. Doctor Doom was a guy who was a thoroughly respected academician; a highly respected chemist, but through a flaw in his own character, he was a perfectionist. Perfectionists cannot accept imperfection. So what happens to Doctor Doom\u2014who wasn\u2019t even Doctor Doom at the time? He was just a chemist. He gets a cut on his chin! The perfectionist suddenly finds himself imperfect, small as that scar may be. So he can\u2019t live with the rest of humanity. (laughter) He can\u2019t live with himself and the rest of humanity. He knows that every man, woman and child who passes him will know that he has this scar on his chin. So he encases his face in an iron mask.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: I remember that moment. Because even though it\u2019s going to totally scar his face, the one scar and the whole face doesn\u2019t make any difference to him.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: No, it doesn\u2019t make a difference to him. Nobody\u2019s ever going to see that scar\u2014but they do! That scar grows so large that it affects his entire brain, and Doctor Doom becomes the ultimate villain. He\u2019ll do anything to anybody. Why? Because you haven\u2019t got that scar! (laughter) He has! And who do you think you are, not having a scar like that? And that\u2019s the point of Doctor Doom. It\u2019s a totally human viewpoint. It\u2019s an inferiority complex. To a guy who\u2019s superior, can you imagine how devastating that must be?<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: He views himself above but he can\u2019t escape.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: And here is a guy who is the ultimate in brains, suddenly finding himself on a level with the ordinary guy. Say the ordinary guy walks around, \u201cSure I got my arm in a sling! So what?\u201d You know? But if Doctor Doom has his arm in a sling, he\u2019d hide the arm in a jacket! (laughter) Or he\u2019d cut it off! He would do the ultimate thing so he could face the world as he believes he should.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: I\u2019ve talked with other people about your work, and one thing that comes up is the idea of scale. You have Galactus who is above everybody; or the Celestials.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Yes. Galactus is a true god\u2014a god in the meaning of modern mythology. Not god in a spiritual sense, but a god in a mythology that\u2019s very modern in context. It\u2019s a modern mythology. In other words, what I\u2019m taking is the old religions and transforming them into our contemporary lives so we can accept them. Galactus, of course, is the ultimate figure and still he has a human problem, too! He\u2019s got his son, Orion&#8230; or is it Darkseid?<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: He deals with the Silver Surfer.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Right. The Silver Surfer himself was a wonderful surprise to me because I know nothing about surfing. I know nothing about surfers! Then one day I saw it in the paper. There was a guy standing on a wooden plank out in California. I was still in New York at the time, OK? And there\u2019s this guy standing on a wooden plank and he\u2019s riding the wave! And that\u2019s fantastic to me! And I said, \u201cSuppose there was a surfer who surfed the universe?\u201d And of course the Surfer does that. He also has to have, in my estimation, a godlike appearance. And him being all silver gives him the kind of aura that makes him different from ourselves.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: You keep using the word \u201ccosmic,\u201d and I wanted to know what your definition of the word \u201ccosmic\u201d is.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: My definition of the word \u201ccosmic\u201d is \u201ceverywhere.\u201d Outside of Earth, we have everywhere. They say there\u2019s nothing out there. I say there\u2019s everything out there. We haven\u2019t got the means or the money to reach it, but it\u2019s out there!<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: There was a science program on physics that was talking about how even if you have an empty thing of space, a particle can come into existence, then meet itself and disappear again. They exist for that moment and then they meet each other and go to zero. That made me think of the way you use the word \u201ccosmic.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Now the Bible itself never mentions evolution. It never says Man evolved over here on Earth. It just says, \u201c&#8230;and then there was Man.\u201d God made Man. And of course, Man suddenly appeared and there he was. I don\u2019t think Man evolved from a monkey. A lot of people don\u2019t believe Man evolved from a monkey. I believe the Bible. It says Man was there, Woman was there. Now, we don\u2019t know how many civilizations there might have been on Earth before ours. Nobody has any idea. I can go to the greatest mind in any college. I can go to any college professor and he wouldn\u2019t be able to tell me how many civilizations there were before ours. My guess is there might have been thirty, forty, a hundred. They might go back hundreds of thousands of years\u2014there might have been civilizations before ours. I believe that Man was present in all of them. Man built them. Monkeys can\u2019t do it. Armadillos can\u2019t do it. (laughter)<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: You had the Celestials come and take the ape creatures and turn them\u2014!<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Yes, but the Celestials can do it. The Celestials looked human, didn\u2019t they? They had human form. Underneath those helmets was a human being\u2014a celestial human being, someone godlike in our eyes because of the things he could do that we couldn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: You would always wrap them in this technology.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: I tried to give technology the touch of legend; and in doing so, I\u2019m telling a story. I\u2019m not trying to tell a truth or I\u2019m not trying to tell a fable. I\u2019m trying tell an honest-to-goodness understandable story; a story that you would read and understand and interpret in your own way! If you want to make them human, that\u2019s your prerogative! And I respect that. I\u2019ve always respected my reader. My reader\u2019s most important to me. So, I would present a story as I felt I saw it and say, \u201cHow do you see it?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>HOPPE: That\u2019s right. A lot of the essays that you had in your comics probed the reader that way.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: I never presented my story as the last word to the reader. I\u2019ve always said to myself, \u201cHow would you see it?\u201d And if the reader saw it differently, he has a right to say that and show it.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: That\u2019s why your stuff has so much influence on people.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: It\u2019s because I respect other people. I respect human beings. I\u2019ve seen them in very happy circumstances and I\u2019ve seen them in the dregs, believe me. So, I\u2019ve always loved human beings because they have the capacity to suffer! (laughter) Yes, they do! I\u2019ve tried to make my characters human, whether we consider them evil or we consider them good. Even my heroes had human qualities. My superheroes had human qualities. They would have families to defend. They would have friends to defend. They would respect women. I respect women. I felt I was presenting my views to the reader and saying, \u201cWhat do you think?\u201d I think that\u2019s an imperative for any writer. In other words, no writer should feel that he has the last word on any subject, because he hasn\u2019t got the capacity! He hasn\u2019t got the capacity\u2014he doesn\u2019t know! I don\u2019t know, I\u2019m guessing as well as you are, except I may be a little more descriptive.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: In the \u201970s you were creating more whole worlds and you were putting more issues into it, more concrete ideas into them than you had before. With the New Gods and the Eternals you were going for these ideas in a lot bigger way.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Well, I did. I felt it was incumbent on me to probe them for myself before I presented them to the reader. What do I think? What do I really think? I\u2019m not a show-off who\u2019s gonna say, \u201cWell, you know, take it or leave it. Take my story or leave it\u201d; I\u2019m not that type. I can only say, \u201cThis is how I believe they would act.\u201d I put enough chinks into the story to allow the reader to interpret it his way, because I\u2019ve always respected the reader. He\u2019s the next guy, and I\u2019ve always respected the next guy. Sure, it was a matter of selling magazines. That was a big consideration. I had to sell magazines to make a living. So, I sold the magazines\u2014I told the best stories I could, but I didn\u2019t present my stories as the final word. I didn\u2019t say, \u201cThis is the final word,\u201d but that\u2019s how my characters act! (laughter) And that\u2019s all I said. That\u2019s how I see human beings. And of course, you\u2019re entitled to analyze my interpretation, as a reader.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: That\u2019s happening a lot.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: I would get letters of all kinds: \u201cHow dare you\u201d letters. (laughter) Oh yeah! And I used to get \u201cYou\u2019re great\u201d letters. \u201cYou\u2019re a great guy.\u201d And I used to get \u201cYou\u2019re a wonderful writer.\u201d I used to get letters \u201cWell, not bad.\u201d It was a variety and you could see it in the letter column that there was a variety of people who interpreted the stories in a variety of ways. It impressed a lot of them. It impressed enough to make good sales, and that\u2019s what I prayed for.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: Did you do a lot of research for this stuff?<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: I did research as I was growing up. I know people from the start. I love people. I grew up in a place where people suffered, where people laughed, where people had a good time. It was an extreme period. Everything was felt in an almost bodily way. You couldn\u2019t be subtle. In my neighborhood you couldn\u2019t be subtle. You had to act from your own instincts, and we did. If a guy insulted me, I punched him. And if I insulted him, he punched me. It was a reaction, it was a thing to do. You couldn\u2019t do otherwise. There was nothing else you could do.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: But the world doesn\u2019t seem quite that way now.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Oh, now I think it\u2019s a lot more sensible, it\u2019s a lot more subtle.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: People get at each other without having to hit each other.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Yes, of course, you learn that along the way. I grew up like everybody else. I felt that I had begun to tell stories in a more mature way. And there was not only fighting in them\u2014I never left the fighting out\u2014besides the fighting, I had the story develop with more mature reason. Why was there a fight? I had to give a mature reason for it.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: In OMAC, you\u2019d give a little of the future that you were concocting and then you\u2019d have this presentation.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Listen, let\u2019s face it, the future is a mystery! Wouldn\u2019t you love to know what\u2019s in the future? (laughter) And, of course, the reader would, too. And I\u2019d say, \u201cIn the future, this is what\u2019s going to happen!\u201d And the reader says, \u201cIn the future! Gee! What does this guy know?\u201d (laughter) And of course, I\u2019d present it as if I really knew\u2014to tell a good story. That was to make the story believable. If you make your characters knowledgeable in your own way, make them share your own knowledge, then you\u2019ll have humanized characters. You\u2019ll have characters who are human beings just like yourself. You have foibles. You have great traits. You have things that will make you candidates for Vice- President. (laughter)<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: That may not be so hard these days. (laughter)<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: There you go! Like, my ambition was, I wanted to be a crooked politician; because coming from a deprived neighborhood, money meant a lot, so I felt that dirty politicians made a lot of it. I told my mother that I\u2019d be a crooked politician.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: I think you rose to higher things!<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: My mother would have none of it.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: The concept I love is the Uni-Mind; do you remember that from the Eternals? When all the Eternals join together?<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: In computers now, people meet over the computer.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: That\u2019s what a computer is.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: The Uni-Mind seemed to be a great symbol of that; of everybody coming together.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: And not only that, that computer will someday do it by itself. Because it\u2019ll be on some automatic position, or it might go by itself. I mean, figure it out. If a computer really thinks in its own mechanical way, suppose it really begins to think on its own? Couldn\u2019t that possibly happen? You walk out of the room, and suddenly this thing goes off! And the entire room begins to click.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: They\u2019re trying to make it happen!<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: And you come back and the room is changed! (laughter) There are four more lights! The computer likes more lights. The soda you were drinking\u2014the computer likes the soda, so he\u2019s made an opening where the soda is, because the computer has seen you do it and the computer respects you because you\u2019ve run him. You made him.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: I\u2019m very familiar with this technology and even though I\u2019m more familiar with it, you come out with very simple ways of discussing concepts that really are what people are doing right now. You say that the computer watches what you do and the hottest thing in artificial intelligence now is the computer learns from the input of the user.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Yes, the computer does learn. Where is the end point? Suppose we make the perfect computer? For instance, we can talk into the computer and it types everything out by itself. And the computer in this manner begins to think on its own. Suppose it doesn\u2019t like XXX. You come in and you read this thing\u2014it\u2019s not the thing you gave the computer! You put the paper in and you speak to the computer, and you type out \u201cWhat\u2019s wrong with this?\u201d and the computer types out \u201cIt stinks!\u201d (laughter)<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: It happens now more than you know already!<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: I don\u2019t know. I just haven\u2019t followed it.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: You understand it already.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: I think there\u2019s a distinct possibility. How far does automation go before you can walk out of this room and this automaton begins to move and think by itself, because it\u2019s built to think?!<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: Do you think it\u2019s good or dangerous?<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Sure, it is dangerous! Suppose it closes the door; you can\u2019t get in. (laughter) It wants to be alone! Maybe it doesn\u2019t like you anymore! (laughter)<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: Mister Machine is sort of the end result of that. He\u2019s a machine but he\u2019s suddenly gone so far that he\u2019s dealing with human problems. He\u2019s a human.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Right. Mister Machine is the ultimate machine. He\u2019s a human machine. Ultimately that\u2019s what the machine wants to be.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: Like Pinocchio, in a way.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Well, the machine knows that we\u2019re responsible for it\u2014that it wouldn\u2019t be there without us. The machine knows that. If it begins to think, \u201cWhere would I be if it wasn\u2019t for these guys? I wanna be like them! These guys must know something!\u201d (laughter) It\u2019s not gonna see you as a god because it knows you can get a sniffle, it knows you can twist a finger. The machine knows that. \u201cThese guys aren\u2019t perfect. Maybe I\u2019m more perfect than they are. I\u2019ll show these guys something, I\u2019ll test \u2019em!\u201d And suppose the machine wins the test? So you have that kind of a contest. How far can you go with the computer before the computer begins to start on you? The computer has the possibility of thinking on its own! That possibility exists!<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: That\u2019s what people want them to do!<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: It\u2019s very real! Suppose a guy walks out of his office and says to his computer, \u201cDon\u2019t forget, I need 25 copies before I get back at two o\u2019clock\u201d and the computer absorbs it.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: There\u2019s a new handheld gadget coming out now and you write on it \u201cMeet Jack Kirby Friday at noon.\u201d It takes \u201cJack Kirby\u201d; puts it over there; says, \u201cFriday\u2014this Friday? Noon\u2014 twelve o\u2019clock\u201d and puts it in your datebook. And all you\u2019ve written on it is \u201cMeet Jack Friday at noon.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: It\u2019s very possible. I know it\u2019s far out, but it isn\u2019t that far out considering the sophistication of the modern computer.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: And that\u2019s why I think people are coming back\u2014the stuff you did 20 years ago, suddenly it\u2019s very current.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Oh sure, it is; it\u2019s contemporary. Of course at that time it was very, very far out. If the fellows didn\u2019t like the stories, they could\u2019ve kicked my behind! (laughter)<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: So you told a good story along with it.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: I had to sell \u2019em a good story. That\u2019s what I mean, you have to be a good storyteller, too. Why is the machine doing that? Maybe the machine is lonely. Maybe the machine wants to know what a man does, that makes him smile. The guy\u2019ll sit at the machine and suddenly he\u2019ll think of something and he laughs out loud or he smiles. The machine says, \u201cWhy is he doing that? What\u2019s he thinking about that makes him smile? I\u2019ve got to ask him that! I\u2019ve got to ask him that,\u201d because he wants to find out. And suppose the computer starts talking. I mean, reflex action! It\u2019s got a brain, okay? Maybe our brains came into existence because of mere reflex action! We were just creatures walking along, learning our way\u2014I don\u2019t believe that we walked on all fours\u2014we were guys just walking around trying to learn about our own existence, which is what we\u2019re still doing today. And here we have these sophisticated machines who are just being born, who are growing up and suddenly they begin to realize, \u201cWhat do these guys know that I don\u2019t? I\u2019ve got to ask them!\u201d And suppose you type something on the machine\u2014something that\u2019s very businesslike\u2014and the machine types back \u201cShit on that! Tell me why you blew your nose!\u201d (laughter) Right?<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: Sure!<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: The machine wants to know that. Why does this guy take out a handkerchief and blow his nose in it? And you have to tell the machine, \u201cWell, there\u2019s mucus in my nose.\u201d Then the machine begins to understand. It says, \u201cWhere does this mucous come from?\u201d And then you say, \u201cWell, it just gathers from your body, and it just comes out from your nose.\u201d And the computer says, \u201cGee, that\u2019s terribly exciting!\u201d (laughter) And the machine may try to build on its own something like that, because it thinks it\u2019s exciting! I think that\u2019s the point we\u2019re at. We\u2019re building machines that are too damn sophisticated. They\u2019re too damn sophisticated, and they\u2019re on the brink of something that we know nothing about.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: I think it\u2019s already happening.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: I go through periods where sometimes it frightens me and sometimes it inspires me.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Yeah. Suppose you come into the office and the machine begins to type and the typewritten sheet says, \u201cI expected you at 2:30!\u201d (laughter)<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: \u201cWhere have you been?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Yeah, \u201cWhere have you been?\u201d (laughter)<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: Well, I don\u2019t want to take up too much more of your time.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Well, it\u2019s been my pleasure. You guys are wonderful. I thank you for your kind interest.<\/p>\n<p>MAYER: I want to say thanks for everything you&#8217;ve done. I started reading your stuff when I was very young and I&#8217;m writing science fiction and doing stuff now&#8230;<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: Well, you guys are on the brink of all that and you can have a wonderful time with it, OK?<\/p>\n<p>MAYER &amp; HOPPE: OK. Thank you.<\/p>\n<p>KIRBY: All right, take care of yourselves and stay healthy.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>\u201cIn the early Nineties I was an avid consumer of Mondo 2000, a wildly glossy magazine filled with digital eye-candy, day-glo tressed and tattooed models draped in computer gear, and techno-hippie political screeds. The folks who published Mondo 2000 from their communal home in the San Francisco Bay area were inspired by the science-fiction novels [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[5],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-7","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-interview"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/7","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=7"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/7\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":2698,"href":"https:\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/7\/revisions\/2698"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=7"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=7"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/kirbymuseum.org\/blogs\/effect\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=7"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}