Harry

You question whether the “smoking gun” pages where done by Al Avison. Frankly as far as I am concerned that attribution is as good as you can get without a signature. This same problem exists with the Avison Boy Heroes pages with the supposed Kirby layouts such as from TJKC #7. They are all of the same drawing style and that style matches work that has been signed by Avison. There is nothing in the “smoking gun” pages that suggests a different artist from the TJKC #7 pages. As an example of an Avison trait, look at the third panel of the GH #35 page and how the fingers of one of the individuals extend into the gutter. Like Kirby, Avison had pretty much dropped extending a figure out of a panel. However he would occasionally extend just a small part past a panel edge, something by the way I have not seen Kirby do. Look at the unfinished Boy Heroes page and note how the boy’s thumb extends just a little bit into the gutter. Also compare the way the eyebrows are drawn in the “smoking gun” pages and GH #35 or those in TJKC #7. I could go on.

As for your question of whether the first page truly is for the Boy Heroes, I wrote that because to me the boy looks like Trig, look at the splash from All-New #13. Could I be wrong? Sure. Would that make a difference? Not at all. The importance of the “smoking gun” pages is not that they are Boy Heroes pages; one of them clearly is not. What is significant is that they are the same style as those such as from TJKC #7, show the same Kirby-like techniques, and yet are clearly not done from Kirby layouts. If Avison could do “Kirby” so well without using layouts for the “smoking gun” pages why should it be assumed that Kirby provided layouts for the other Boy Heroes pages? Where is the evidence for that? As for any dates, that would be great evidence, but none of the unpublished Avison Boy Heroes art that I have seen has a date but that did not stop anyone from drawing conclusions. Nor does it seem to stop you from claiming it was done during S&K Stuntman/Boy Explorer Harvey period.

It seems we both agree that Joe’s statement was not completely accurate, after all Jack did not create the Boy Heroes. I offered the evidence of Boys Heroes art from Joe’s collection to show that perhaps S&K were involved in a launch of a Boy Heroes title. But I find it interesting that these two completed stories for BH #1 and #2 were not done by Avison, not only is the style wrong but they are signed (or more accurately monogrammed) by another artist. Also there is nothing to suggest that these are “back-up” stories as you described them. Why are the only stories for the Boy Heroes title from Joe’s collection not done by Avison? It could just be a coincidence or it could be that Avison did not have anything to do with S&K’s attempt to create a Boy Heroes title. I am not ignoring Joe’s statement but in light of at least one inaccuracy (Jack created Boys Heroes) and one questionable part (Gabriel’s involvement) I am not ready to accept the whole statement as fact.

Your observations about Howard Ferguson lettering are very interesting. If it could be showed that he did not letter other Harvey work, then that truly would be good evidence that Avison was working for S&K at that time. But I am not ready to make that assumption, after all later S&K productions would all be lettered by Ben Oda, but he also worked for other outfits as well.

As for Avison and S&K both starting at Harvey at the same time, well that would be suggestive if it was not right after the war. Based on his disappearance from Timely, I do suspect that Avison entered the military service at about the same time as Joe and Jack. At the end of the war they all would return to civilian life at about the same time. Avison had done work for Harvey before and Joe has said that Avison and Harvey were already friends. Although I am not sure why Avison did not play a bigger part at Timely after the war, his appearance at Harvey is not at all surprising.

There is one other piece of evidence to suggest that perhaps Avison did work with S&K and once again it is from Joe’s collection. Joe has what looks like cover art of the Boy Heroes signed by Avison. The art is inked but neither the title nor any other text had been applied. What is interesting is that it seems to be a swipe from the Stuntman #2 cover; it makes me wonder whether Joe did the layouts. But it also makes me suspect that it was create sometime after Stuntman #2. In other swiping by Joe that I have seen the swipe was done based on an original piece that was published some time before, not from a time close to when the swipe would be published.

I am still not convinced that Avison actually worked for S&K. The titles his art actually appeared in (All-New and Green Hornet) do not appear to be Simon and Kirby productions and Avison did not show up in any title that does seem to come from S&K. For me the question of whether Avison worked for Simon and Kirby, while interesting, is not of paramount importance when it comes to the question of whether Kirby provided layouts for Avison. Even if he were working for S&K the “smoking gun” pages show that he did not need any help from Kirby.

I think you missed my point about circular panels. I brought it up in discussing GH #35 because it shows that Kirby was not involved in the layout of that story. Yet Avison shows some typical Kirby-like techniques in GH #35. Again if Al could “get” Kirby so well for GH #35, why should layouts have been required to explain the Boy Heroes stuff. Unfortunately the use of circular panels in Avison’s Boy Heroes is not very instructive since we do not have any firm dates when that work was done. But just because circular panels are present does not mean the layouts are by Kirby, Avison used circular panels both before (in 1942 for Captain America) and after (GH #35) the Stuntman/Boys Explorer period.

Just a few comments. Since we are all speculating, there’s no way to prove any of it.

First, you claim that those two unfinished pages are a ‘smoking gun” yet is there any evidence beyond speculation that these are by Al Avison? And any proof as to when these were done? You speculate that the first page is from Boy Heroes. Why? The boy drawn is certainly not one of the Boy Heroes, and we have no idea what the other page was for. Was there any notations mentioning Al Avison or Boy Heroes? or a date?

You seem to want to downplay Joe’s statement when it comes to S&K’s role in Boy Heroes, yet you then tell us that Joe has back-up stories meant for issues 1 and 2. To me, this is the real smoking gun that S&K were involved with packaging the proposed Boy Heroes series. Why else would Joe have the back-up stories?

Another interesting factoid. S&K had their own letterer, Howard Ferguson, who went everywhere with them. Guess who lettered that Green Hornet page from All-New #13? Howard Ferguson. Guess who lettered those unpublished pages shown in Jack Kirby Collector? Howard Ferguson.

Without concurrent issues of other Harvey comics, I don’t know if Howard was also doing other comics for Harvey outside of S&K.

Something you seem to gloss over is that Al Avison never worked on Boy Heroes before that cross-over story with the Green Hornet, so his first connection with that series came while S&K were working for Harvey, so the timeline fits with Joe’s statement. The fact is, the only published work by Al Avison on Boy Heroes is the cross-over Green Hornet story, and the one page used for the cover of A-N Comics #15. There is another back-up Boy Heroes story in Humphrey Comics #4 almost 2 years later which I haven’t seen, and I assume (with no real reason!) that it was a remaindered story by Al Avison. So Al Avison’s whole output on Boy Heroes seems to have been done during those few months while S&K was working
at Harvey. This is why if you want to compare formatting styles, such as the circular panels, then you have to look at what S&K was doing during that stretch at Harvey in 1946, which is when Avison was drawing those Boy Heroes pages, not a Green Hornet story from a year later. What I would want to see is what Al was doing just prior to his work on Boy Heroes, and whether he was using those circular panels, or did they start at the time when he, Joe and Jack started back at Harvey, which might suggest that he was taking formatting tips from S&K.

The interesting thing is that Avison, Simon and Kirby started back (post-war) at Harvey at the same time. Avison’s first Harvey work after the war was a cover on Green Hornet #30, dated May/June 1946. This matches up with the fist issues of Stuntman and Boy Explorers.

If Al Avison is suddenly adopting the S&K format, it would suggest that he was working hand in hand with Joe and Jack. That he continued using it for at least a year doesn’t help.

One other little thing that jumps out at me. That header, “At Last!! A Radio-Comic Feature! via Television!!” This has all the hallmarks of a Joe Simon header blurb, much like those seen in Stuntman, and other S&K series. Plus, it was a Howard Ferguson design that he used several times.

Stan

Let’s start with Johnson and Morrow’s “The Unsung Heroes” from TJKC #7. It seems that they had already made the Kirby association for the unfinished Boy Heroes before approaching Joe Simon. One thing they assert was that unlinked pages looked like they had Kirby involvement. It is assertion of Kirby layouts for Avison like this one that I dispute and I back it up with the smoking gun of the two unfinished pages. I feel that these unfinished pages clearly show that Avison “got” Kirby. Long sinewy arms, exaggerated perspective, even the square fingers, the whole thing. This is firm evidence of Kirby-like style without use of layouts. As far as I am concerned anyone claiming Kirby layouts for Avison has got to provide something more then vague claims. Avison did not need Kirby layouts to achieve his Kirby influenced style.

Johnson and Morrow also contend, and you seem to agree, that they see Kirby handwriting in some places. Here the evidence has been obscured by the letterer but what pencils I have seen under the letter’s inked version looks like Avison handwriting to me.

Now let me turn to Joe Simon’s comments from the same TJKC #7 article. It is clear that Joe has muddled the waters. Despite Joe’s statement that the group was created by Kirby, Avison and Gabriel, Jack had nothing to do with the creation as he was in the Army at the time as I pointed out in my post. As I also pointed out Avison had already been doing some work on the Boy Heroes. There is some merit in trying to salvage Simon’s statement by saying that S&K meant to give Boy Heroes their own book. Joe’s collection contains artworked marked for Boy Heroes #1 and #2, interestingly the work was not done by Avison. Joe may have confused Avison’s real involvement with Boy Heroes with this project for a Boys Heroes title. His inclusion of Gabriel in this project may also be part of that confusion.

Now let me turn to your last comment about the issue of circular panels. You are absolutely correct that circular and semi-circular panels are abundant in Stuntman and Boy Explorers. But you are wrong when you say that this work was concurrent with Green Hornet #35. The Stuntman and Boy Explorer stories appearing in Green Hornet, Joe Palooka and Terry and the Pirates were left over material from the cancelled comics and was actually done in 1946, not 1947. What is important when discussing the evolution of Kirby art is the creation date, not the publication date. Generally creation and publications are in agreement, but not with this material. The S&K work that truly was concerrant with Green Hornet #35 was Boy Commandos #23, Headline #26, My Date #2, Real Clue Crimes v2 n7, and Young Romance #1. I am not suggesting “that Jack Kirby wasn’t using them during this period” but as I said in my post they were used less frequently. The decrease in use of circular and semi-circular panels between the 1946 work and that from 1947 is dramatic. But for the Green Hornet #35 story Avison used circular or semi-circular panels on every page, often more then once.

Not to filibuster this thread, ;-) but this is one of my favorite S&K periods. I will disagree with you on one detail. You mention, and highlight the use of the circular panels seen in the Boy Heroes and Green Hornet pages, and suggest that Jack Kirby wasn’t using these during this period. Concurrent with Green Hornet #35, and Boy Heroes, Jack was pencilling Stuntman and Boy Explorers, and tons of crimes pages for Prize.these series are filled with just those circular panels, in fact, they overwhelm the pages at times. Joe Simon’s work on Duke of Broadway also features a ton of these circular panels. So the appearance of the circular panels really doesn’t point to anyone in particular.

Stan

Just to make my earlier post clearer. When Joe said that Boy Heroes was a creation of Kirby, Avison and Gabrielle, I don’t think he meant the characters, I think he was talking about the characters getting their own book. I think Boy Heroes #1 was to be produced by S&K with Al doing the bulk of the artwork, possibly with Kirby as art director or some such position. The Boy Heroes first appeared in All-New #6, and lasted until #12. They were cover featured on all of those books with the Red Blazer. The only credits I have ever seen were to Louis Cazeneuve, but I can’t verify.
The appearance of the Boy Heroes in the Green Hornet strip in #13 seems an attempt to continue the characters after the cancelation of the Red Blazer, possibly with them getting their own book.

Stan

Stan